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Kudos from feline: One of the many things I love about this chatroom is knowledgable people who can instantly gratify my need to be informed, and immediately exchange ideas - I love it!

Demanding Truth, Justice and Accountability in Government

Investigations and Impeachment: Facts and Myths

Reed31463

There is so much disinformation out there being passed around on why Impeachment cannot or should not occur. It is my position that impeachment and a full accounting of corporate and governmental misdeeds must occur. If this does not happen, then we are doomed to have repeated attempts to subvert our Constitution by those with money, power and influence.

Here are some of the thoughts of others in the netroots community on the I word. Every one of these arguments are severely flawed and their frequency and pervasiveness in the netroots community is like a runaway virus. Only by educating ourselves and others will these myths vanish.

Myth #1: Besides, if you impeached Bush succesfully, you get Cheney, and if you impeach both Cheney and Bush, you would have the biggest and longest running Constitutional Crises America has ever seen. And it would cost the taxpayers a fortune. It's impractical. By the time it would go thru, Bush is out the door already, but not before pardoning everyone in sight. The power of the pardon is absolute, according to the constitution (stupid move on the part of the founders...) mudkitty

Who can put a price on freedom? Because if it was possible, those corporate elitists pulling the strings would have already bought and sold it. However, putting aside the silliness of assessing what the costs of freedom and democracy over fascism and dictatorship are, mudkitty raises a good question.

RonK at The Next Hurrah does a good job addressing this question.

Does impeachment override a presidential pardon?

I dunno. I am not a lawyer, much less an eminent constitutional scholar ... but does not our friend Publius drop broad hints in the affirmative?

Why else would he so pointedly contrast the abuse-prone New York model with the new, improved US model? Why does he shout incessantly at the mention of Pardon?

He is to have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, EXCEPT IN CASES OF IMPEACHMENT

And reconsider this quote, with my emphasis added. The President "could shelter no offender, in any degree, from the effects of impeachment". Are there "degrees" of removal and prohibition from future office? No. What are there degrees of? Infractions, penalties, punishments, judgements and sentences.

The Framers labored mightily to thwart the ambitions of Tyrants without unduly exposing their "Chief Magistrate" to the ravages of Faction. They vested, delineated and circumscribed the various powers with care. Where the Constitution's minimal text is annoyingly nondispositive, they lay out the underlying logic in the Federalist Papers and elsewhere.

I believe this next myth is actually a fear being pushed by GOP spin machine. After all, How could investigations into all the horrible things already known to have occurred by this administration backfire? And there are still many more unanswered questions that deserve answers, but the administration has declared them "State Secrets" to cover their illegal activity.

Myth #2: People!
While impeachment might seem desirable, it could backfire big time. We need to wake the country from the trance we are in.

The Chimp and Darth (Wayne and Garth?) are going down as the worst administration in 200 years. Ten years from now people will still spit at the mention of their names. That's good enough. Ignominy. NoOneDiedWhenClintonLied

But there is even a better reason to impeach hundreds, if not thousands of government civil employees involved in the current coup. Again, RonK at The Next Hurrah does a good job addressing this issue.

Consider the Iran-Contra conspirators drummed out of the Reagan administration, and pardoned at the close of Bush41's tenure. If Congress had proceeded to impeach and disqualify those already convicted (or whose investigations and prosecutions were derailed by the pardons), Elliott Abrams could never have signed on with Bush43 as "Deputy Assistant to the President and Deputy National Security Advisor for Global Democracy Strategy" ... and the globe might consequently be safer for democracy. (Emphasis mine)

Those who are involved in undermining the Constitution for their own personal benefit must be forever removed from the playing field. We must learn this lesson from our immediate past history. Failure to impeach will embolden those with designs to undermine the Constitution and they will try again. Only next time, who is to say they will not be successful?

The last myth is not really a myth, but rather a misconception.

Myth #3: OF COURSE, "impeachment is off the table" NOW...because we haven't yet had the proper investigations into who knew what and when on twisting and manipulating the intel to lie us into the Iraq War. Remember, those are the investigations that the Republicans have been stonewalling for years.
Nancy said it exactly right. She has said that they will go forward with THE INVESTIGATIONS that the Republicans have stonewalled. Impeachment CANNOT be "on the table" until an investigation reveals a reason to impeach. David B.

IMHO, the best way to think of Impeachment proceedings is to think of them in terms of Grand Jury proceedings. I found this definition in Gaskells Political Dictionary.

Impeachment. Any officer who abuses his authority, is liable to impeachment. The lower house acts as grand jury, the upper, as petit jury. The great political excitement incident to reconstruction culminated in the impeachment of Andrew Johnson in 1868. Articles of impeachment were agreed upon March 3, and presented to the Senate two days later. The trial began March 23, Chief-Justice Chase presiding. The specific charge was the removal of the Secretary of War, Stanton, in violation of the tenure of office act. After a long and exciting trial, he was acquitted, a few Republican Senators voting with the Democrats for acquittal.

and from USConstition.net

Impeachment
Impeachment, in the U.S. and Great Britain, proceeding by a legislature for the removal from office of a public official charged with misconduct in office. Impeachment comprises both the act of formulating the accusation and the resulting trial of the charges; it is frequently but erroneously taken to mean only the removal from office of an accused public official. An impeachment trial may result in either an acquittal or in a verdict of guilty. In the latter case the impeached official is removed from office; if the charges warrant such action, the official is also remanded to the proper authorities for trial before a court. Source: FWE

Our Constitution has now undergone repeated attempts to undermine and supplant the foundations of liberty with that of a dictatorship within the last 50-60 years. Something has changed from the original document that is upsetting the balance Madison and our forefathers struggled over.

We must clean house and administer justice. We must inquire why has this coup attempt occurred and how can it be prevented from ever happening again?

I do not have the answers. I only know that by doing thorough and complete investigation into what has occurred, can we understand the lessons learned and gather the necessary information in order to develop the solutions needed which will prevent a coup like this from ever having a chance to happen again.

Comment # 1 ~ Patriot ~ 10/10/2006 11:41 GMT

Wonderful! You really tickled my funny bone!

Comment # 2 ~ Alma ~ 10/10/2006 14:18 GMT

Thats one hurricane that I hope just keeps raging.

Comment # 3 ~ keenekarl ~ 10/11/2006 04:48 GMT

Off-shoot storms spawned by Hurricane Foley have reached into the Northern Plains! Overheard at the Klobuchar(DEM) v.s Kennedy (REP) debate in Moorhead, Minnesota tonight: Representative Mark Kennedy is so far behind Amy Klobuchar in the latest polling that the Republican party will be pulling financial support from the Kennedy campaign to put it into races that are more competitive! Also noted: The crowd at the debate was clearly more pro-Klobuchar and the crowd moaned Kennedy as he voiced the same tired, old standard attack lines (cut and run, tax and spend, etc.) It just ain't foolin' anyone no more!

Comment # 4 ~ Rusty ~ 10/11/2006 07:30 GMT

That's great news, Karl!